[no subject]

Jeff hit on a crucial point. The scale of effect with vote machines is
so much greater than that of a car computer. We are putting our blind
trust in a machine to select who will act on our behalf, in our name.

I have pretty good trust in a fork getting food from my plate to my
mouth.

I'm a bit more leary about the brakes on my car as there is no
"pre-failure detection system" that warns me befoer the pedal goes to
the floor.

"Ah", you say, "you could have the brakes inspected by a qualified
mechanic!". Which is _precisely_ the point here. So far, the "mechanics"
that have seen the voting machine prototypes and/or older models have
all said the system is crap. And the mechanics have been systematically
denied access to "under the hood".

So if one vote out of ten for candidate A were swapped to be for
candidate B in close race states and there was no way to detect the
change since the mechanics are not allowed access, it is not hard to
envision that the final outcome could be suspect. 
>   
> 
> > 
> > > The Diebold machines hide the voting process from their users
> > > and even their operators, 
> > 
> > No more so than a calculator hides the process by which mathematical
> > calculations are achieved.  One could argue that the Diebold box does
> > even less than a calculator.
> 
> Utterly wrong.  A calculator can be subjected to arbitrary tests.  A
> calculator's results can be independently verified, even by hand if
> desired.  Everyone's calculator is not inscrutably connected with every
> other calculator (yet).  My worst-case scenario for the Diebold machines
> is that all they really do is have the outward appearance of a voting
> machine but actually pass no data on for tabulation; their controllers
> simply report whatever numbers they wish.  
> 
> > 
> > > putting the company and parties unknown into a position to subvert
> > >  the election process with little fear of detection.
> > 
> > Sure, if you want to believe that.  I don't. That is just too extreme
> > for me to think that a company would willingly produce something that
> > could ruin itself.  You are just grasping for straws by suggesting such
> > a possibility.
> 
> History is full of such companies and in each case, the company hoped
> that secrecy and misinformation would be the key to survival.  Such
> companies depend on a never-ending supply of incurious, uncritical,
> passive, and blindly trusting people.  
> 
> > 
> > > OSS voting machines and the means to prove that the OSS in question is
> > > really running on the machines is the only way to computerize the
> > > process with integrity.
> > 
> > What about the hardware and the firmware that the OSS runs on?  If
> > Diebold's black-box solution won't satisfy you how can some OSS app on
> > some other black-box?
> 
> It wouldn't.  My hope is that any means used to count votes uses a
> process that is transparent to enough people that it would be extremely
> unlikely that all such people could or would conspire to subterfuge. 
> Any process that is too complex or too opaque for this should never be
> adopted.  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
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</pre>
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<li><strong><a name="00123" href="msg00123.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
<ul><li><em>From:</em> jkinney at localnetsolutions.com (James P. Kinney III)</li></ul></li>
<li><strong><a name="00125" href="msg00125.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
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<li><strong><a name="00072" href="msg00072.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
<ul><li><em>From:</em> jcf at primeharbor.com (Chris Farris)</li></ul></li>
<li><strong><a name="00083" href="msg00083.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
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<li><strong><a name="00100" href="msg00100.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
<ul><li><em>From:</em> esoteric at 3times25.net (Geoffrey)</li></ul></li>
<li><strong><a name="00101" href="msg00101.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
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<li><strong><a name="00111" href="msg00111.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
<ul><li><em>From:</em> hbbs at comcast.net (Jeff Hubbs)</li></ul></li>
<li><strong><a name="00117" href="msg00117.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
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<li><strong><a name="00120" href="msg00120.html">[ale] Its over. Maybe</a></strong>
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